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hi everybody it's alex karras from skip

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cocom wanted to let you know about an

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interview i've just released with

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out-of-body experience ER and lucid

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dreamer

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juergen Ziva very interesting guy you're

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gonna collected these Auto Body

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experience

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Diaries for twenty thirty years before

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he published anything he's also quite an

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accomplished artist he's he's published

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this in some books that have become

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quite popular there he is this is his

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amazon page vistas of infinity

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multi-dimensional man may have heard

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about that nice guy very um seems like a

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very earnest guy has put out some rather

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extraordinary videos talking about his

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experience with the dead what happens

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after you die other experiences in these

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alternative realms of consciousness what

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I found particularly interesting with

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this interview that I did with uragan is

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I asked him about some of the other

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out-of-body experience people out there

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a while back I interviewed this guy

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Robert Bruce very well known throughout

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the world has published a couple books

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about his extensive experiences outside

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of his body now what's interesting about

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Robert Bruce is he claims to have

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encountered demons and actually been

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possessed by these demons and goes to

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pretty great lengths to talk about that

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now the other person I wanted to compare

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your guns account with was someone else

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I interviewed awhile ago

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Marilyn Hughes and Marilyn's quite

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interesting because Marilyn is a

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Christian very Christian and her

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interpretation of her auto body

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experiences are from a very Christian

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perspective and also what's interesting

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about Marilyn is we did an experiment on

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skeptic Oh where she did essentially a

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medium

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reading for I was a proxy sitter and

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there was this woman unfortunately lost

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her daughter by suicide and Marilyn was

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able to give an incredible account very

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evidential of this reading that she did

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and but her in general Maryland holds to

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a very Christian understanding of her

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auto body experience here is her website

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where she talks about oh how Jesus isn't

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too happy with the way the world is

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going kind of thing so this is kind of

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an interesting topic to me it's one that

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I've covered now several times I think

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it fits in with the extended

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consciousness stuff in general

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near-death experience mediumship all

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that stuff I think out-of-body

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experience is yet another way that we

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don't totally understand but seems to be

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out there to access this extended

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consciousness realm and it was very

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interesting talking to Jurgen so I hope

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you enjoy this interview you can find it

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either right here it's gonna follow this

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on this YouTube presentation but I won't

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be in it I'll just play the video or you

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can go over to skeptic Oh calm down load

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the mp3 obviously for free or you can

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get it through iTunes stitcher or

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whatever you like

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so I hope you enjoy this interview with

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Jurgen Ziva on this episode of skeptic

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Oh most of the world is living in a

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consensus reality that doesn't allow for

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this how do you balance that both on a

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day-to-day basis now and how did you

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deal with it for that long period of

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time when you really weren't telling

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anyone that this is what was going on

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yeah I think the first thing is of

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course we are totally focused on the

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physical reality and nearly everybody is

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and when it comes to our dreams we

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hardly pay any attention and be just

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dismissing those dreams but the moment

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you become aware in your dreams that

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just usually happens during lucid dreams

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things start

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode we return to a topic that I

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don't think gets enough serious

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scientific attention and that is lucid

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dreaming and in particular the potential

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for lucid dreaming to actually propel us

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into other realms of consciousness that

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is certainly the assertion of today's

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guest Jurgen Ziva a guest who was

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introduced to me by you skeptical

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listeners in this case Steve who

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suggested I talk to Jurgen and it was a

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great suggestion and in the process of

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doing the interview with Jurgen I did

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get back in touch with my own limited

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experience with lucid dreaming and I've

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talked about it a couple times on the

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show and various interviews but you know

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I never even knew what lucid dreaming

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was until my oldest son began sharing

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his dreams with me his dream stories in

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the morning and he talked about these

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wild adventures that he had orchestrated

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he and insisted that you know he was in

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the center of these and making him

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happen and he could do whatever he

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wanted and all this stuff and initially

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I just kind of passed it off as fantasy

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I didn't think it was possible and it

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was through skeptic oh and doing various

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interviews on this show that I learned

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that there is really such a phenomena as

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lucid dreaming and it's been studied

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quite extensively in the laboratory as

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well as they can and there's even

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practitioners who will put you up at the

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Marriott for the weekend and teach you

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lucid dreaming in a seminar format so

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now people who research dreams have come

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around to the reality of lucid dreaming

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it's the sense that while you're in your

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dream you're aware that you're dreaming

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and therefore have the sense of control

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in my case I can tell you the first

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lucid dream I had was not that amazing

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but then it was amazing because it was

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my lucid dream but I remember it pretty

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clearly I was observing this football

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game but it's really

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strange football game played on a weird

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field and everything seemed kind of out

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of proportion and suddenly the thought

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crossed my mind

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hey this isn't real this must be a dream

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because I had been researching lucid

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dreaming which by the way is one of the

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key triggers if you want to begin lucid

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dreaming first step is to observe your

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dream but the second step or maybe it's

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the first step I don't know is to be

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aware that it's possible to become aware

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that you're dreaming

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in a lucid dream so it turns out that

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just the awareness of this can often

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trigger lucid dreaming for a lot of

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people and that was somewhat the case

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for me anyways back to this dream I had

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this thought it crossed my mind hey this

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must be a dream and with that I did what

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a lot of lucid dreamers will tell you is

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one of the first things they do I said

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I'm a dream I should be able to do

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whatever I want I'm gonna take flight

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and I just jumped with the and I just

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jumped with the idea that I'm gonna fly

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and well who the hole I flew I was off

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in the air and I was flying and I was

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above everything it's really cool it

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really felt like flying so since then

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I've had a bunch of lucid dreams they

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don't happen all the time they seem to

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happen more often during these

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hypnagogic states like when you wake up

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early in the morning and then you fall

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back asleep or when you first fall

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asleep at night those are classically

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the times when people have lucid dreams

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and that seems to be case for me but the

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reason I bring all this up is for two

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reasons first I don't think lucid

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dreaming is talked about enough as

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really being a stark departure from our

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ordinary understanding of consciousness

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and it is because lucid dreaming makes

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it clear experientially to us that we

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are in the observer mode of reality we

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are observing this reality that's

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unfolding and of course as you know

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doesn't bode well with our current model

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of consciousness but the other thing

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that's particularly interesting about

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lucid dreaming is how it is often a

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gateway to more extensive travels into

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these extended consciousness realms many

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people will tell you that they started

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out lucid dreaming and then they moved

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on to out-of-body travel

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and these other dimensions of

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consciousness that is certainly the

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account of today's guest Jurgen Ziva

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whose compiled the largest database that

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I know of of these accounts of lucid

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dreaming as a mode of travel into these

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extended consciousness realms

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now his accounts are quite challenging

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they're really outside the norm of what

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we experience and what we understand

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reality to be but isn't that what makes

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it fun in the first place

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what I tried to do in this interview was

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connect some of your guns thoughts

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experiences and ideas with some of the

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other guests you've heard on skeptic oh

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you can be the judge of whether or not

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those connections are there and whether

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they provide us any further insight into

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what's going on

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all in all was a really interesting

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dialogue from a very sincere and

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dedicated explorer of extended

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consciousness I hope you enjoy this

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today we welcome Jurgen Ziva to skeptic

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of Jurgen had a very successful career

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as an artist and illustrator but is

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probably much better known as a longtime

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out-of-body experience er who compiled a

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40 year journal in private of his

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experiences in this extended

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consciousness realm before publishing

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multi-dimensional man he's gone on to

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publish several books since then this is

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an amazing body of work from a very

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interesting gentleman who I'm so glad

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that a skeptical listener insisted that

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we bring on the show and I'm very happy

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to welcome you to sceptical you're good

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I don't go to you well it's very great

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to talk to you too so let me give folks

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a thumbnail sketch of your background

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and then we can kind of jump off from

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there I think because I have interviewed

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several out-of-body experiences before

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as well as a handful of people who've

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researched this phenomena I I think a

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lot of people are going to be familiar

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with the basic idea but again your case

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is totally unique and yet it fits in

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with a pattern that we've seen before so

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you're practicing meditation you are

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very deeply and intently practicing it

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and then suddenly you're catapulted out

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of your body and you experience this

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other realm one thing that's very unique

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in your case is you kept this diary

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detailing these experiences for 40 years

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which is really quite remarkable and

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then you came back and you started

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sharing those experiences with other

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people who were understandably

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fascinated and gained a lot from what

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you had to share you've formed a little

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community and that's what eventually led

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you to write these very interesting

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books what else should we add to that

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background to help people understand

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where you're coming from I think that's

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basically it really but I don't think my

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meditation helped of course to focus

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attention when I had out-of-body

277
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experiences so I was able to prolong

278
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them and also I by device various

279
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techniques to bring back the information

280
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and retain very detailed memory really I

281
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think that's that together is recording

282
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it always have to get a much more

283
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comprehensive picture because these

284
00:12:56,939 --> 00:12:55,029
experiences can easily get lost you know

285
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if you don't follow some sort of

286
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discipline which is an interesting topic

287
00:13:05,790 --> 00:13:03,070
in and of itself and we want to talk

288
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about in a minute the connection or what

289
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we proposes might be the connection

290
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between memory and this extended

291
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consciousness realm I mean there's a

292
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whole there are dozens and dozens of

293
00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:19,750
potential PhD thesis --is waiting for

294
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someone to explore all these realms one

295
00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:24,339
of the things I feel obligated to do

296
00:13:28,290 --> 00:13:25,660
right from the beginning is to

297
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acknowledge with you that what we're

298
00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:31,779
talking about here is just beyond what

299
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most people are even willing to consider

300
00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:37,089
and even though as I mentioned I've

301
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interviewed several very respectable

302
00:13:44,579 --> 00:13:42,639
people who have had similar Autobody

303
00:13:46,079 --> 00:13:44,589
experiences through various means and

304
00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:46,089
we'll talk about some of those in a

305
00:13:50,670 --> 00:13:47,800
minute and I've interviewed researchers

306
00:13:53,340 --> 00:13:50,680
who have as best they could try and nail

307
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down what is going on and whether we can

308
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extend beyond our brain as your

309
00:14:01,199 --> 00:13:59,050
experiences suggestion they say yes

310
00:14:04,769 --> 00:14:01,209
confidently but I always feel obligated

311
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to come back and kind of remind us that

312
00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:07,810
most of the world is living in a

313
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consensus reality that doesn't allow for

314
00:14:18,329 --> 00:14:14,649
this how do how do you kind of balance

315
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:18,339
that both on a day-to-day basis now and

316
00:14:23,610 --> 00:14:21,850
how did you deal with it for that long

317
00:14:25,889 --> 00:14:23,620
period of time when you really weren't

318
00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:25,899
telling anyone that this is what was

319
00:14:30,410 --> 00:14:28,660
going on yeah I think the first thing is

320
00:14:32,569 --> 00:14:30,420
of course we are totally for

321
00:14:34,879 --> 00:14:32,579
was on the physical reality nearly

322
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:34,889
everybody is and when it comes to our

323
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:37,290
dreams the hadi paying attention and we

324
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:40,079
just dismiss them as dreams but the

325
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,240
moment you become aware in your dreams

326
00:14:46,930 --> 00:14:45,120
which is usually happens during lucid

327
00:14:50,540 --> 00:14:46,940
dreams things start changing

328
00:14:53,569 --> 00:14:50,550
dramatically but when you have an

329
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:53,579
out-of-body experience and which is very

330
00:14:58,879 --> 00:14:56,490
of Matins from a lucid dream or can

331
00:15:02,150 --> 00:14:58,889
happen from a lucid dream then you

332
00:15:05,829 --> 00:15:02,160
suddenly are in a position to take

333
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:05,839
control of the experience and also

334
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:11,120
that's what I did I disintegrated or

335
00:15:17,420 --> 00:15:14,730
interrupted the dream narrative which

336
00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:17,430
which is a lucid dream which is usually

337
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:21,000
comes out of the takes its content from

338
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:24,600
the subconscious and by doing so you

339
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:27,510
then after you dismantle the dream

340
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:29,730
narrative you then find yourself in a

341
00:15:35,689 --> 00:15:32,370
new consensus reality which is just as

342
00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:35,699
real as our physical reality and this is

343
00:15:42,370 --> 00:15:38,089
where things become really interesting

344
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:42,380
interesting indeed and interesting in

345
00:15:47,389 --> 00:15:45,600
maybe some challenging ways that we

346
00:15:49,519 --> 00:15:47,399
don't always explore we you know one of

347
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:49,529
the things I thought we might do in this

348
00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:52,290
interview jörgen is you have produced

349
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:55,140
some excellent YouTube videos that

350
00:16:00,110 --> 00:15:57,839
anyone can go and check out you also

351
00:16:03,319 --> 00:16:00,120
have a terrific website and a great book

352
00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:03,329
too so I love the approach of your book

353
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:04,620
you're very open

354
00:16:10,699 --> 00:16:07,680
you're very the the artist in you comes

355
00:16:13,610 --> 00:16:10,709
out in terms of you you have kind of an

356
00:16:16,309 --> 00:16:13,620
open mindedness and creativity at the

357
00:16:19,309 --> 00:16:16,319
same time that's really refreshing but

358
00:16:24,439 --> 00:16:19,319
what I thought would be most useful to

359
00:16:28,090 --> 00:16:24,449
my listeners is to try and probe maybe

360
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,100
the controversies or the the the

361
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:30,720
disparity between these different

362
00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:33,810
accounts we get with this extended

363
00:16:38,990 --> 00:16:36,569
consciousness including out-of-body

364
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:39,000
experiences and if that doesn't make any

365
00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:40,410
sense let me give me an example of what

366
00:16:44,140 --> 00:16:41,880
I mean

367
00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:44,150
a few months ago I interviewed this guy

368
00:16:52,070 --> 00:16:48,840
his name is Anne McCormack and he had an

369
00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:52,080
incredible near-death experience during

370
00:16:57,260 --> 00:16:55,500
which he saw Jesus now

371
00:16:59,540 --> 00:16:57,270
as you and I know most people just

372
00:17:01,340 --> 00:16:59,550
dismiss this out of hand it's a oh it's

373
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:01,350
a hallucination or if they're hardcore

374
00:17:07,699 --> 00:17:03,210
Christians they go it's the spirit of

375
00:17:09,439 --> 00:17:07,709
Jesus you know but what I want to do and

376
00:17:12,829 --> 00:17:09,449
I shouldn't be so flippant because I'm

377
00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:12,839
not sure what he experienced right and

378
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:15,270
in my conversation with him is a very

379
00:17:20,780 --> 00:17:17,280
difficult conversation because he has

380
00:17:25,130 --> 00:17:20,790
totally reabsorbed his experience which

381
00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:25,140
I take to be genuine I have no reason to

382
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:27,300
doubt in the same way that I don't doubt

383
00:17:32,330 --> 00:17:30,000
that you've accessed this extended

384
00:17:34,790 --> 00:17:32,340
consciousness realm I have no reason to

385
00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:34,800
doubt that in McCormick's access this

386
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:37,020
extended consciousness realm when he

387
00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:39,210
died because one of the reasons I don't

388
00:17:43,940 --> 00:17:41,580
doubt it is because I've interviewed the

389
00:17:45,860 --> 00:17:43,950
researchers who interviewed thousands of

390
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:45,870
people who have had the exact same

391
00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:48,410
experience and some of them do encounter

392
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:51,720
Jesus but the real question for you and

393
00:17:59,360 --> 00:17:55,530
I is what does this tell us about this

394
00:18:01,040 --> 00:17:59,370
extended consciousness realm and and

395
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:01,050
I'll just leave it at that but I guess

396
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:02,310
might and I won't leave it at that

397
00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:04,170
because my follow-up question is you

398
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:05,700
talked about some well you have a

399
00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:07,440
wonderful way of talking about the

400
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:11,310
island of reality that we create from

401
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:15,570
the vast sea of consciousness but you

402
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:18,000
talk about that in this realm in our

403
00:18:23,540 --> 00:18:20,910
conscious waking state might that also

404
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:23,550
be true in this extended realm too and

405
00:18:29,810 --> 00:18:26,310
is that what ian is experiencing or what

406
00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:29,820
is he experiencing yeah I think I think

407
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:32,520
what some people experience is they draw

408
00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:36,480
from their from their cultural

409
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:39,480
background very often you know and find

410
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:41,100
somebody if you go to a high-dimensional

411
00:18:46,730 --> 00:18:44,610
rams will find the dimensions are much

412
00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:46,740
more sublime much more beautiful they're

413
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:49,740
stripped of the course physical aspects

414
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:52,530
that we experience here and you get into

415
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:53,370
Rams

416
00:19:00,020 --> 00:18:57,120
which I described you become get closer

417
00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:00,030
to home there's an element where you

418
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:02,600
feel more and more at home the more

419
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:05,310
inside you turn your attention the more

420
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:07,710
you come to your soul's consciousness

421
00:19:14,690 --> 00:19:11,360
and what you'll see more turn Leslie

422
00:19:19,670 --> 00:19:14,700
experience is that the people on these

423
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:19,680
realms who are separate individuals they

424
00:19:25,910 --> 00:19:23,520
are also much more beautiful are more

425
00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:25,920
attractive and more sublime they've

426
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:29,820
stripped all the negative aspects out of

427
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:32,370
their personality because it's the

428
00:19:40,190 --> 00:19:35,510
negative aspects which tie them to the

429
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:40,200
to the lower consciousness levels but on

430
00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:41,850
these higher consciousness levels all

431
00:19:46,580 --> 00:19:44,070
the negative aspects have been stripped

432
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:46,590
away and when you first get to these

433
00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:49,350
higher ion efforts and you encounter

434
00:19:56,030 --> 00:19:51,590
these people the first thing people will

435
00:20:01,250 --> 00:19:56,040
think of as angels because they've got

436
00:20:05,780 --> 00:20:01,260
an almost super natural beauty and

437
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:05,790
attractiveness you know and and also and

438
00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:08,130
that is just ordinary people who you

439
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:10,590
find on that level of consciousness on

440
00:20:17,390 --> 00:20:13,710
that dimensional never and I've got to

441
00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:17,400
add that for each level of consciousness

442
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:20,720
we can experience there is an equivalent

443
00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:23,610
dimensional reality consensus reality

444
00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:28,020
where people similarly minded can mix

445
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:32,220
and be together now I found when going

446
00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:34,890
to the higher levels the people you meet

447
00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:38,430
there are almost a result exception

448
00:20:44,060 --> 00:20:40,470
they're very attractive very sublime

449
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:44,070
very beautiful very positive people you

450
00:20:49,610 --> 00:20:46,500
know and then of course you get various

451
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:49,620
other categories of people as you would

452
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:52,890
get on this level who are wiser who are

453
00:20:58,670 --> 00:20:56,250
more evolved more highly developed and

454
00:21:02,630 --> 00:20:58,680
so on and these people may well come

455
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:02,640
across as as like an avatar or a wise

456
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:05,910
person or even a God you know and is

457
00:21:12,810 --> 00:21:07,570
quite easy to put

458
00:21:16,499 --> 00:21:12,820
our own cultural background into these

459
00:21:19,259 --> 00:21:16,509
people but I can't really say that

460
00:21:22,469 --> 00:21:19,269
that's an accurate description is

461
00:21:24,389 --> 00:21:22,479
absolute certainty because you know I've

462
00:21:26,779 --> 00:21:24,399
only really scratched the surface but I

463
00:21:30,539 --> 00:21:26,789
personally haven't actually met any

464
00:21:33,570 --> 00:21:30,549
religious figures you know except I have

465
00:21:37,349 --> 00:21:33,580
met which I documented in my first book

466
00:21:40,289 --> 00:21:37,359
I I met a Chinese ancient sort of sage

467
00:21:42,930 --> 00:21:40,299
who put me through a training program in

468
00:21:45,299 --> 00:21:42,940
order to access these higher states of

469
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:45,309
consciousness I

470
00:21:49,979 --> 00:21:47,679
well first off I appreciate you being so

471
00:21:51,779 --> 00:21:49,989
so honest and open like I said before

472
00:21:54,269 --> 00:21:51,789
this is what folks will find when they

473
00:21:57,690 --> 00:21:54,279
encounter your website in your work you

474
00:21:59,609 --> 00:21:57,700
really don't you talk very definitively

475
00:22:01,909 --> 00:21:59,619
about what you've explored but at the

476
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:01,919
same time you talk about it as you're

477
00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:04,330
you being the reporter you being the

478
00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:06,220
experiencer and there's a limit to what

479
00:22:09,659 --> 00:22:07,840
you've experienced and reported so I

480
00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:09,669
really respect that and I think that's

481
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:12,580
to be admired it's the only way to kind

482
00:22:17,549 --> 00:22:15,369
of trace this territory but let me

483
00:22:20,489 --> 00:22:17,559
return to the topic of Jesus because I

484
00:22:22,889 --> 00:22:20,499
think it's so so important to so many

485
00:22:25,979 --> 00:22:22,899
people and I think it should be you know

486
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:25,989
there's a near-death experience research

487
00:22:31,589 --> 00:22:27,970
or very well known but a guy named dr.

488
00:22:33,570 --> 00:22:31,599
Sam Parr Nia and recently he made this

489
00:22:35,759 --> 00:22:33,580
kind of flip it remark that you'll kind

490
00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:35,769
of hear near-death experience

491
00:22:40,649 --> 00:22:37,809
researchers sometimes make even though

492
00:22:42,299 --> 00:22:40,659
these people are on the they feel like

493
00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:42,309
they're on the battleground with

494
00:22:47,489 --> 00:22:45,070
mainstream science and saying hey guys

495
00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:47,499
look over here there is more we are not

496
00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:50,049
biological robots there is this extended

497
00:22:53,969 --> 00:22:51,849
consciousness realm please please look

498
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:53,979
at this data but then at the same time

499
00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:55,690
when they encounter these extraordinary

500
00:23:00,349 --> 00:22:57,700
accounts like I'm talking about ends

501
00:23:03,509 --> 00:23:00,359
they say oh well that's just a cultural

502
00:23:06,629 --> 00:23:03,519
overlay that's what that is and I like

503
00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:06,639
how you went in that direction that but

504
00:23:10,019 --> 00:23:08,049
then pulled up short and said well I

505
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:10,029
don't really know if that's a cultural

506
00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:12,369
overlay and that's been my point is we

507
00:23:17,129 --> 00:23:14,830
don't know about that extended realm you

508
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:17,139
know we talk we hear about people who go

509
00:23:21,030 --> 00:23:19,690
and they meet these beings and the

510
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:21,040
beings says here

511
00:23:25,860 --> 00:23:23,170
is my hand where I was crucified on the

512
00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:25,870
cross and I am Jesus and then we don't

513
00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:29,320
know what to make of that and it really

514
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:31,750
raises the larger question about your

515
00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:35,680
work and that is what can we really take

516
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:39,280
out of these extended realms and bring

517
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:42,970
back into our world I always wonder and

518
00:23:46,410 --> 00:23:44,770
worry about that maybe we're looking

519
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:46,420
through the wrong end of the telescope

520
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:49,360
when we do that and since that's the

521
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:52,000
larger reality over there when we try

522
00:23:57,450 --> 00:23:54,910
and jam it back into our reality it

523
00:23:59,880 --> 00:23:57,460
winds up being nonsensical in a lot of

524
00:24:03,530 --> 00:23:59,890
different ways what are your thoughts on

525
00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:03,540
that I mean my explanation is that I

526
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:07,270
have a strong experience and a strong

527
00:24:13,290 --> 00:24:10,210
feeling that when you move away from

528
00:24:16,110 --> 00:24:13,300
this physical reality you get into a

529
00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:16,120
realm of consciousness which contains

530
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:20,280
all the data which have ever been

531
00:24:26,940 --> 00:24:24,460
recorded or everything that is known or

532
00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:26,950
unknown about the universes it's like a

533
00:24:32,370 --> 00:24:30,700
massive huge databank you know and and

534
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:32,380
that's the only way I can explain it

535
00:24:38,130 --> 00:24:34,690
because what happens is for example when

536
00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:38,140
you are on this on this realm and you

537
00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:40,150
for example want to materialize

538
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:43,900
something by an by an effort of will you

539
00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:45,730
know and say you want to have a cup of

540
00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:48,550
tea you can actually manifest a cup of

541
00:24:54,330 --> 00:24:51,070
tea and then you wonder okay how did

542
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:54,340
this cup of tea come about and what

543
00:24:59,790 --> 00:24:57,010
happens was in my observation it is

544
00:25:04,050 --> 00:24:59,800
actually already in existence I just

545
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:04,060
focus focus the data right in front of

546
00:25:09,810 --> 00:25:06,370
me and then he materializes now the

547
00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:09,820
interesting thing was when I when I did

548
00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:12,760
this experiment which I also described

549
00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:15,880
in my book business of infinity that

550
00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:18,190
that I materialize the tea cup but I

551
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:20,620
wasn't very good at actually manifesting

552
00:25:26,190 --> 00:25:23,650
the tea which tasted a bit watery and

553
00:25:28,830 --> 00:25:26,200
also at the same time I noticed that the

554
00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:28,840
tea cup had a patent which I definitely

555
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:31,240
didn't intend and I imagined that

556
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:35,170
subconscious energy sort of

557
00:25:41,010 --> 00:25:38,410
you know adds things from from another

558
00:25:44,820 --> 00:25:41,020
part of the database and it's a very

559
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:44,830
complex big issue the other thing I

560
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:48,700
noticed for example was when I observed

561
00:25:55,050 --> 00:25:52,000
a car and the closer I moved to look at

562
00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:55,060
the car the more detail emerge from the

563
00:25:59,820 --> 00:25:57,340
car until it was absolutely crystal

564
00:26:01,590 --> 00:25:59,830
clear and then you open the bonnet in

565
00:26:04,290 --> 00:26:01,600
the car there you will find an engine

566
00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:04,300
and every detail will be in place and

567
00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:07,240
that led me to believe that on this

568
00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:11,260
level basically why our focus we simply

569
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:15,790
call reality up from from a database a

570
00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:19,120
bit like we would on a computer you know

571
00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:21,550
when we'd call up data from a harddrive

572
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:24,460
and be manifested on the screen and

573
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:26,850
that's the only way I can explain it and

574
00:26:32,910 --> 00:26:29,650
and that explains a lot of other things

575
00:26:36,270 --> 00:26:32,920
which I encountered for example and that

576
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:36,280
could well explain how we are detailed

577
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:39,760
to people who are separate individuals

578
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:49,970
status you know that he may then call up

579
00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:53,710
the past images in order to furnish

580
00:26:59,550 --> 00:26:57,100
these encounters and may match them with

581
00:27:01,410 --> 00:26:59,560
our own experience but I don't know I

582
00:27:04,980 --> 00:27:01,420
mean the other thing I found for example

583
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:04,990
is that these are things which have also

584
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:07,930
been reported in near-death experience

585
00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:09,850
and that there is a big reception

586
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:12,430
committee and I had the same experience

587
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:14,440
I get to a higher level of consciousness

588
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:16,960
and suddenly there's a cry of the

589
00:27:23,610 --> 00:27:21,490
thousand dangerous you know as I thought

590
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:23,620
hang on a minute that's a bit bit

591
00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:26,410
far-fetched you know because why would

592
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:29,140
there be a suddenly a thousand thousand

593
00:27:36,150 --> 00:27:31,090
angels you know be a reception committee

594
00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:36,160
and I when I thought about it I be fed

595
00:27:41,550 --> 00:27:38,740
you know I had the music and everything

596
00:27:44,550 --> 00:27:41,560
the choir everything I simply felt that

597
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:44,560
I created this my attention always my

598
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:46,690
feelings bedroll

599
00:27:52,529 --> 00:27:50,289
rolled into place at that time I created

600
00:27:55,409 --> 00:27:52,539
a focal point of Attraction where I

601
00:27:58,529 --> 00:27:55,419
caught these voices up from a universal

602
00:28:02,039 --> 00:27:58,539
database and the angels and I manifested

603
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:02,049
them but I could be wrong but this is to

604
00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:04,630
me you know that's how I sort of

605
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:07,630
envisage it especially even when you

606
00:28:12,659 --> 00:28:10,450
think where you are but this space of

607
00:28:15,450 --> 00:28:12,669
consciousness is which is literally an

608
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:15,460
infinite fascinating and really we're

609
00:28:20,850 --> 00:28:18,250
we're talking around this central issue

610
00:28:22,590 --> 00:28:20,860
that I want to try and approach from a

611
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:22,600
different angle here for a second and

612
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:26,230
first let me back up and say I my only

613
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:29,440
experience with this whole extended

614
00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:32,080
consciousness thing was I interviewed a

615
00:28:35,159 --> 00:28:33,580
gentleman who is an out-of-body

616
00:28:38,580 --> 00:28:35,169
experience ER and had a similar

617
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:38,590
experience to yourself in that his name

618
00:28:45,270 --> 00:28:42,159
is Graham Nichols and Graham was very

619
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:45,280
intent on achieving an out-of-body

620
00:28:48,899 --> 00:28:46,990
experience because he read about he said

621
00:28:50,399 --> 00:28:48,909
this is something that's possible I want

622
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:50,409
to do it which is a little bit different

623
00:28:54,419 --> 00:28:51,960
than you you were just meditating and

624
00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:54,429
spontaneously achieved it he said no I

625
00:29:00,149 --> 00:28:57,070
want to do it so he just been intensely

626
00:29:02,580 --> 00:29:00,159
focused on this meditation technique and

627
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:02,590
it really probably went through you know

628
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:06,640
more than 99.9% of people would in terms

629
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:08,590
of his diligence and his effort and

630
00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:11,470
doing it and then he did achieve he left

631
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:13,630
his body and then as you described it

632
00:29:17,549 --> 00:29:15,760
took him several years to refine it and

633
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:17,559
refine it further and further and

634
00:29:22,590 --> 00:29:19,570
further you know so I talked to Graham

635
00:29:24,390 --> 00:29:22,600
and I said okay I'd like to try it with

636
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:24,400
you you know you teach you teach people

637
00:29:29,399 --> 00:29:25,840
how to do it teach me how to do it and

638
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:29,409
the way we started was he III really

639
00:29:33,539 --> 00:29:31,330
don't have any kind of paranormal

640
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:33,549
experiences in my background but I have

641
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:36,010
these very vivid dreams so he said we

642
00:29:40,409 --> 00:29:38,140
should start with the Dreaming and lo

643
00:29:41,850 --> 00:29:40,419
and behold after working with him and

644
00:29:44,399 --> 00:29:41,860
talking to another friend of mine

645
00:29:47,789 --> 00:29:44,409
through the show dr. Andy Paquette who

646
00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:47,799
is fabulous has a fabulous history of

647
00:29:52,740 --> 00:29:50,260
precognitive dreams and spiritual dreams

648
00:29:55,049 --> 00:29:52,750
I was able to develop a little bit of an

649
00:29:56,669 --> 00:29:55,059
ability to lucid dream and I still do

650
00:29:58,409 --> 00:29:56,679
that to this day and it's rather

651
00:30:00,210 --> 00:29:58,419
interesting but the one thing I

652
00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:00,220
discovered in my lucid dreaming

653
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:04,030
that totally fits with your experience

654
00:30:10,919 --> 00:30:06,850
is I then discovered that really all my

655
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:10,929
dreams are lucid dreams it's a matter of

656
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:13,330
memory in perspective and then I was

657
00:30:20,669 --> 00:30:16,480
constantly creating this dream in

658
00:30:24,350 --> 00:30:20,679
creating this reality yes so I find that

659
00:30:27,060 --> 00:30:24,360
to be consistent with my experience but

660
00:30:29,399 --> 00:30:27,070
there's another aspect of this that I

661
00:30:32,399 --> 00:30:29,409
think is is the part that really

662
00:30:35,220 --> 00:30:32,409
intrigues people and doesn't fit I think

663
00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:35,230
necessarily into that model and that

664
00:30:40,409 --> 00:30:38,590
would be like I just said ends encounter

665
00:30:41,010 --> 00:30:40,419
with Jesus but I'll take it in another

666
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:41,020
direction

667
00:30:46,649 --> 00:30:43,840
and while back I had an episode I had an

668
00:30:49,529 --> 00:30:46,659
interview with Robert Bruce this was

669
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:49,539
episode 203 of skeptic Oh probably one

670
00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:50,320
of the best-known

671
00:30:55,649 --> 00:30:53,110
out-of-body experiences in the world

672
00:30:58,529 --> 00:30:55,659
wrote this book astral dynamics which

673
00:31:01,590 --> 00:30:58,539
was hugely successful and many many

674
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:01,600
people have read it so Roberts account

675
00:31:07,950 --> 00:31:05,289
is of demonic possession that he was

676
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:07,960
doing a healing he encountered a demon

677
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:10,480
that demon possessed him in this world

678
00:31:15,270 --> 00:31:13,210
and he battled this demon in this world

679
00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:15,280
and this extended consciousness realm

680
00:31:21,899 --> 00:31:19,750
and this demon was sent off and he says

681
00:31:24,539 --> 00:31:21,909
that he's had similar encounters with

682
00:31:28,169 --> 00:31:24,549
these kind of other spirits in this

683
00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:28,179
other realm now this is the kind of

684
00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:31,390
issue I think that people are trying to

685
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:34,630
fit into this framework that you're

686
00:31:38,490 --> 00:31:36,250
laying out there because on one hand we

687
00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:38,500
can say there's this field of infinite

688
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:40,780
consciousness that we are creating our

689
00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:43,210
reality out of but there's another

690
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:46,600
reality that's very primal to people

691
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:48,970
that is oh I encountered Jesus or I

692
00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:51,039
encountered Buddha I encountered Krishna

693
00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:53,289
and that's been the guiding force of

694
00:31:56,970 --> 00:31:54,940
their whole life or people are

695
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:56,980
encountering like Robert Bruce did these

696
00:32:02,549 --> 00:32:00,640
demonic beings or evil spirits so how do

697
00:32:04,919 --> 00:32:02,559
we sort this out I don't know that we

698
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:04,929
can just you blow by it and go oh well

699
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:06,610
you know there's this consciousness feel

700
00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:08,110
then it's created out of there I don't

701
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:10,049
know if that that really hits people's

702
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:11,740
experience

703
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:15,370
yeah I think we have the moment we are

704
00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:18,010
born we are sort of endowed with some

705
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:20,440
sort of genetic program or cultural

706
00:32:26,909 --> 00:32:23,250
program you know and that determines the

707
00:32:29,610 --> 00:32:26,919
experiences we we look for and we find

708
00:32:33,180 --> 00:32:29,620
and so on our educational upbringing and

709
00:32:36,029 --> 00:32:33,190
so on and you know that takes us into a

710
00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:36,039
certain direction in our life and and

711
00:32:41,610 --> 00:32:38,529
then endow us with a certain type of

712
00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:41,620
belief and it is this program which

713
00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:45,220
makes us focus our attention in two in

714
00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:47,830
two distinct directions for example if

715
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:50,590
we had a very strongly Christian

716
00:32:57,419 --> 00:32:54,010
upbringing we may well focus our

717
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:57,429
attention into this aspect of the

718
00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:00,399
universe of the infinite universe which

719
00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:05,220
is endowed with question paraphernalia

720
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:07,990
environments churches belief systems

721
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:12,480
holy entities and so on and we may well

722
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:18,370
this our strong focus and passion we may

723
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:22,080
well draw the essences of these entities

724
00:33:29,940 --> 00:33:25,470
into our awareness and by the mayor

725
00:33:33,649 --> 00:33:29,950
focus of doing so we may actually get a

726
00:33:36,990 --> 00:33:33,659
part or are they in the essence of these

727
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:37,000
historic beings bring them into our

728
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:39,990
reality and they may actually act

729
00:33:46,049 --> 00:33:42,970
authentically you know the way we would

730
00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:46,059
expect them track you know I mean this

731
00:33:51,539 --> 00:33:49,809
is just the theory the the same thing

732
00:33:54,269 --> 00:33:51,549
may happen

733
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:54,279
if you focus on negative aspects of our

734
00:34:01,680 --> 00:33:58,240
personality and you know if he confront

735
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:01,690
our shadow you know we may draw aspects

736
00:34:09,570 --> 00:34:06,730
of our subconscious into our reality and

737
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:09,580
then suddenly these these projections

738
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:13,810
become insoluble negative energies you

739
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:17,050
know which which may use them as a

740
00:34:24,860 --> 00:34:19,750
vehicle in order to interact with us

741
00:34:28,970 --> 00:34:24,870
these are all sort of concepts which

742
00:34:31,730 --> 00:34:28,980
when you consider that the consciousness

743
00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:31,740
is a very reliable very infinite and

744
00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:36,390
very flexible state completely different

745
00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:38,070
to what we experience on a physical

746
00:34:43,610 --> 00:34:40,350
level you know then you can easily

747
00:34:47,780 --> 00:34:43,620
explain how so many different phenomena

748
00:34:51,350 --> 00:34:47,790
can take place and take on so many forms

749
00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:51,360
and shapes I mean the way I express this

750
00:34:59,470 --> 00:34:54,950
in my book is the difference between

751
00:35:02,360 --> 00:34:59,480
life on the physical level and life

752
00:35:04,970 --> 00:35:02,370
non-physical life is that the moment our

753
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,980
physical body with our physical brain

754
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:07,680
dies we are left with our subconscious

755
00:35:13,940 --> 00:35:11,460
and all the information which have you

756
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:13,950
know defined us and then suddenly all

757
00:35:20,270 --> 00:35:17,130
this becomes our external new reality

758
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:20,280
you know and it's a bit like in a dream

759
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:23,250
you have a dream you no longer a

760
00:35:28,430 --> 00:35:25,170
physical entity and suddenly the dream

761
00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:28,440
becomes your reality the only difference

762
00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:30,590
is with lucid dreaming and out-of-body

763
00:35:38,330 --> 00:35:34,440
experiences it becomes a tangible heart

764
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:38,340
solid external reality but in addition

765
00:35:45,860 --> 00:35:42,510
to this it is also infinitely infinitely

766
00:35:48,290 --> 00:35:45,870
complex I hear you on all that you're

767
00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:48,300
gonna but I just have to say you know

768
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:51,870
maybe I guess this is really the crux of

769
00:35:57,530 --> 00:35:54,810
the of the debate or the divide so

770
00:36:00,200 --> 00:35:57,540
Robert Bruce is saying I didn't just

771
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:00,210
form this out of a thought form I was

772
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:02,910
interacting with another individual here

773
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:05,970
and there was this third entity that was

774
00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:09,090
the spirit entity that was interacting

775
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:11,220
with both of us you know and I had a

776
00:36:16,130 --> 00:36:13,770
similar experience I interviewed this

777
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,140
woman Marilyn Hughes who I thought was

778
00:36:20,540 --> 00:36:18,000
really interesting because we not only

779
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:20,550
she's an out-of-body traveler that's

780
00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:22,890
what she reports similar to you but we

781
00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:24,900
actually did an experiment because this

782
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:26,460
is a during a time when I was

783
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:28,650
investigating medium communication and

784
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:31,890
we did a somewhat of a demonstration I

785
00:36:35,450 --> 00:36:33,570
should say rather than an experiment but

786
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:35,460
was controlled and I thought a very and

787
00:36:42,020 --> 00:36:38,480
she did a very convincing job of

788
00:36:44,750 --> 00:36:42,030
accessing this other realm of deceased

789
00:36:47,059 --> 00:36:44,760
people and assisting this woman who

790
00:36:49,819 --> 00:36:47,069
lived in Texas whose daughter had

791
00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:49,829
committed suicide and she was able to go

792
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:52,049
this is her report she's able to go to

793
00:36:56,859 --> 00:36:54,000
find the daughter and bring back

794
00:36:58,970 --> 00:36:56,869
information that was extremely

795
00:37:00,859 --> 00:36:58,980
significant to the mother who was

796
00:37:02,359 --> 00:37:00,869
completely blinded from the reading I

797
00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:02,369
was in the middle so she didn't have any

798
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:04,980
way of knowing any of this stuff but but

799
00:37:10,029 --> 00:37:07,200
I mean if we're gonna say you know

800
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:10,039
where's the proof Marilyn Hughes

801
00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:13,890
provided proof to me that she had gone

802
00:37:19,279 --> 00:37:16,740
to some other realm access some other

803
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:19,289
spirit being that being this deceased

804
00:37:23,930 --> 00:37:22,049
daughter and then bringing back then

805
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:23,940
information transferring it to me and me

806
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:26,400
giving it to the mother so I always

807
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:29,520
wonder one when I hear your your talk

808
00:37:34,490 --> 00:37:31,910
and in your work which I find very

809
00:37:36,859 --> 00:37:34,500
fascinating and important in so many

810
00:37:38,839 --> 00:37:36,869
ways but I wonder if we're kind of

811
00:37:41,299 --> 00:37:38,849
missing the point when we talk about

812
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:41,309
this huge field of consciousness and

813
00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:43,770
we're creating all these islands of our

814
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:46,020
consensus reality I mean maybe we're

815
00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:47,250
really missing the point

816
00:37:50,779 --> 00:37:48,990
that's what Marilyn would say Marilyn

817
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:50,789
would say the point is that there are

818
00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:52,770
these beings out there on these other

819
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:55,230
levels so are they important or are they

820
00:37:59,809 --> 00:37:57,450
just being created by us and they're not

821
00:38:03,140 --> 00:37:59,819
important no absolutely she's absolutely

822
00:38:06,620 --> 00:38:03,150
right because these are tangible

823
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:06,630
realities made out of individuals the

824
00:38:11,059 --> 00:38:08,880
only difference is that these people

825
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:11,069
have given up the physical body and now

826
00:38:18,289 --> 00:38:13,770
they are living in an other dimensional

827
00:38:22,010 --> 00:38:18,299
reality and I have met fairly sinister

828
00:38:24,260 --> 00:38:22,020
people myself perhaps perhaps similar to

829
00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:24,270
what Robert brucer may have described

830
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:27,569
you know they are basically people on on

831
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:31,140
much lower dimensional level is a very

832
00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:36,240
negative atmosphere in persona but I my

833
00:38:42,109 --> 00:38:38,460
experiences were probably different but

834
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:42,119
one thing I can confirm is over the

835
00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:44,640
years I have met my my mother who died

836
00:38:51,060 --> 00:38:49,030
in 1970 97

837
00:38:53,390 --> 00:38:51,070
I met her on several occasions and I

838
00:38:56,910 --> 00:38:53,400
three met her and I had conversations

839
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:56,920
with her and I watched her she progress

840
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:00,400
and develop and I had conversations with

841
00:39:09,060 --> 00:39:05,260
my wife's brother who died in 2006 and I

842
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:09,070
met him again and we discussed at great

843
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:14,410
length but you know where's my phosphate

844
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:17,680
has gone wrong and so on and I could

845
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:20,710
even confirm afterwards this my wife and

846
00:39:25,470 --> 00:39:23,410
I gave had some details that she that I

847
00:39:28,530 --> 00:39:25,480
couldn't have known which she confirmed

848
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:28,540
so I'm absolutely convinced that there

849
00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:31,090
is no such thing as death or

850
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:33,550
disappearance of individual people once

851
00:39:39,450 --> 00:39:35,920
we we are stripped of our physical body

852
00:39:41,310 --> 00:39:39,460
I would even go so far it is what we

853
00:39:44,670 --> 00:39:41,320
experienced here on the physical level

854
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:44,680
is only as of a tiny percentage of the

855
00:39:52,020 --> 00:39:48,130
greater reality which we enter into once

856
00:39:54,450 --> 00:39:52,030
we leave our physical body behind you

857
00:39:58,260 --> 00:39:54,460
know so I think what I'm saying is not

858
00:40:02,280 --> 00:39:58,270
in contradiction to what you've just

859
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:02,290
mentioned Alex right so now then let's

860
00:40:09,210 --> 00:40:04,240
tackle some of the really really big

861
00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:09,220
questions destiny or freewill are we as

862
00:40:14,910 --> 00:40:13,030
you said programmed at birth or as many

863
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:14,920
others have suggested from the

864
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:17,650
reincarnation experience before birth or

865
00:40:24,780 --> 00:40:20,770
through a period of many births are we

866
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:24,790
playing out a destiny in our life or are

867
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:28,800
we shaping our destiny as we go or both

868
00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:32,770
yes I think there's a bit of I mean we

869
00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:36,300
also a program by you know our

870
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:39,580
experiences our past experience our

871
00:40:45,450 --> 00:40:42,010
environments and parents in order to act

872
00:40:48,570 --> 00:40:45,460
in a certain manner but on the other

873
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:48,580
hand we also have got a free will and

874
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:50,970
I'm personally not hundred percent

875
00:41:01,690 --> 00:40:54,640
convinced that we are totally enslaved

876
00:41:03,850 --> 00:41:01,700
to to come on to a past program you know

877
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:03,860
I mean for example this becomes very

878
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:06,650
apparent when you go into the deeper

879
00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:09,110
states of meditation and then you get to

880
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:11,480
a point where you experience something

881
00:41:17,020 --> 00:41:14,330
which I would call liberation you know

882
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:17,030
freedom but you suddenly find all the

883
00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:20,690
things you have believed in before here

884
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:23,270
- am i compelled by these things are

885
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:26,450
suddenly no longer relevant or they

886
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:30,560
don't have any any power over you you

887
00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:32,090
know you suddenly find you're in the

888
00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:35,020
state of liberation can actually make

889
00:41:40,090 --> 00:41:37,550
missing limits within the physical world

890
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:40,100
of course you know are you but you can't

891
00:41:46,990 --> 00:41:44,210
call the shots and you can act free of

892
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:47,000
your past program that is my experience

893
00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:49,370
so I would say yes there's a bit of

894
00:41:58,350 --> 00:41:54,020
course you know and if unless you find

895
00:42:01,300 --> 00:41:58,360
this point of where you lose your

896
00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:01,310
personal identification you know your

897
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:03,950
new attachments to your old

898
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:07,730
identification you need to go past this

899
00:42:12,310 --> 00:42:09,650
point and then you know simultaneously

900
00:42:14,620 --> 00:42:12,320
also move into much higher reality

901
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:14,630
dimensions in abattoir which are

902
00:42:21,550 --> 00:42:17,540
increasingly more liberating and more

903
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:21,560
luminous and more beautiful you know

904
00:42:24,130 --> 00:42:23,330
Jurgen you just mentioned again and

905
00:42:27,490 --> 00:42:24,140
we've mentioned throughout this

906
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:27,500
interview higher levels and it suggests

907
00:42:35,470 --> 00:42:31,760
a hierarchy and many have reported such

908
00:42:39,010 --> 00:42:35,480
a hierarchy ascended masters like where

909
00:42:44,170 --> 00:42:39,020
time at Buddha Jesus Krishna advanced

910
00:42:47,350 --> 00:42:44,180
spirits does this suggest a hierarchy

911
00:42:49,870 --> 00:42:47,360
does this suggest a moral imperative

912
00:42:53,110 --> 00:42:49,880
are we driven in by some evolutionary

913
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:53,120
force in a direction be it towards good

914
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:55,130
or or if we want to put it in those

915
00:43:02,830 --> 00:42:58,010
terms or some other way is there god I

916
00:43:06,910 --> 00:43:02,840
guess is the question well I mean the

917
00:43:09,310 --> 00:43:06,920
idea of a hierarchy is perhaps not the

918
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:09,320
best way of expressing it because I mean

919
00:43:14,660 --> 00:43:12,000
very often I came across

920
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:14,670
before I had my out-of-body experience I

921
00:43:19,580 --> 00:43:17,310
was told there are seven levels of the

922
00:43:21,770 --> 00:43:19,590
astral plane so in so many of the mental

923
00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:21,780
plane and very early on in the beginning

924
00:43:28,580 --> 00:43:26,609
I was on out of my body and I met people

925
00:43:32,359 --> 00:43:28,590
who actually were permanent inhabitants

926
00:43:35,540 --> 00:43:32,369
and one of the stupid questions I asked

927
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:35,550
was what level am I on you know and of

928
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:37,650
course they they looked at me as if I

929
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:41,010
you know as if I was mad because they

930
00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:43,200
didn't know what I was talking about so

931
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:46,640
we create we recreate abstraction from

932
00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:49,920
actual experiences in consciousness in

933
00:43:55,339 --> 00:43:52,080
order to make it understand

934
00:43:58,580 --> 00:43:55,349
understandable but I think there is no

935
00:44:03,530 --> 00:43:58,590
such thing as as hierarchies which you

936
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:03,540
can define in a numeric system you know

937
00:44:10,420 --> 00:44:05,700
when I talk about higher states of

938
00:44:15,650 --> 00:44:10,430
consciousness I mean more awareness more

939
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:15,660
light more power more energy you know

940
00:44:20,300 --> 00:44:17,910
this sort of thing more the the

941
00:44:23,329 --> 00:44:20,310
consciousness is more expanded more

942
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:23,339
inclusive and also a higher

943
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:26,310
consciousness to me means you are closer

944
00:44:32,540 --> 00:44:29,490
to the source whatever of who you are so

945
00:44:35,089 --> 00:44:32,550
there's a feeling that you are you feel

946
00:44:38,180 --> 00:44:35,099
at home you know and this this whole

947
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:38,190
feeling to me is the best way to

948
00:44:43,820 --> 00:44:41,310
describe how close I am to the source

949
00:44:46,010 --> 00:44:43,830
consciousness and the further I am

950
00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:46,020
removed from the source consciousness

951
00:44:52,339 --> 00:44:49,950
the more alienated I feared you know

952
00:44:56,050 --> 00:44:52,349
until I get back to the physical level

953
00:44:59,660 --> 00:44:56,060
of a physical level most people Olivia

954
00:45:03,650 --> 00:44:59,670
leading fairly alienated lives you know

955
00:45:07,970 --> 00:45:03,660
but when you transcend the boundaries of

956
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:07,980
the physical world you become closer to

957
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:10,680
the unity awareness to the source level

958
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:13,050
and you don't feel this alienation and

959
00:45:19,839 --> 00:45:16,050
when you come to higher dimensional

960
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:19,849
levels you will simply can trans

961
00:45:25,650 --> 00:45:23,010
transpose your identity to anything any

962
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:25,660
object you look at and you can see

963
00:45:32,809 --> 00:45:28,690
the water you can be the water you know

964
00:45:36,180 --> 00:45:32,819
if you look at water or the flower this

965
00:45:39,180 --> 00:45:36,190
alienation is totally transcended and

966
00:45:43,020 --> 00:45:39,190
you become consciousness and then the

967
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:43,030
limits are only dependent on how far you

968
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:44,970
are able to expand your consciousness

969
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:49,200
you know and that's my experience that

970
00:45:56,420 --> 00:45:53,250
lower down if you like to use this

971
00:45:59,640 --> 00:45:56,430
description you become more and more

972
00:46:02,549 --> 00:45:59,650
estranged from your source level and

973
00:46:04,349 --> 00:46:02,559
more alienated you know until you in the

974
00:46:07,140 --> 00:46:04,359
physical level and and there's an

975
00:46:09,150 --> 00:46:07,150
suddenly line and outside world yep

976
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:09,160
you live in an outside world that you

977
00:46:14,789 --> 00:46:11,890
distinguish between you and and the

978
00:46:19,289 --> 00:46:14,799
others or yourself and another Ness and

979
00:46:22,349 --> 00:46:19,299
this this is transcended when you turn

980
00:46:24,029 --> 00:46:22,359
your attention inside I kind of get that

981
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:24,039
but I want to push this a little bit

982
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:26,730
further because I think we have this

983
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:31,839
problem in crossing in merging these

984
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,730
realities that you're talking about I

985
00:46:38,130 --> 00:46:35,440
mean when you mention the term source

986
00:46:40,769 --> 00:46:38,140
and getting closer to the source and the

987
00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:40,779
really you're speaking in terms that

988
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:43,569
many religious and spiritual people

989
00:46:49,170 --> 00:46:46,000
would immediately identify with and

990
00:46:51,150 --> 00:46:49,180
label that as God and you carefully

991
00:46:53,370 --> 00:46:51,160
don't do that and you also then talk

992
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:53,380
about alienation and moving away from

993
00:46:59,160 --> 00:46:56,170
that and again these can easily be put

994
00:47:00,930 --> 00:46:59,170
in terms that are very familiar with a

995
00:47:04,980 --> 00:47:00,940
lot of wisdom traditions a lot of

996
00:47:08,730 --> 00:47:04,990
religion so is there a reality to the

997
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:08,740
concept of God well this is this one

998
00:47:16,410 --> 00:47:12,970
thing really which I this is a subject I

999
00:47:20,819 --> 00:47:16,420
simply feel I'm not authorized or

1000
00:47:24,990 --> 00:47:20,829
qualified to to you know say something

1001
00:47:27,660 --> 00:47:25,000
about I I I can only talk about my

1002
00:47:30,569 --> 00:47:27,670
experience and very early on in the 70s

1003
00:47:33,569 --> 00:47:30,579
I had a unity experience which came

1004
00:47:36,750 --> 00:47:33,579
spontaneous which I described in my my

1005
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:36,760
first book after I spent months and

1006
00:47:43,019 --> 00:47:38,890
months of meditation so five hours

1007
00:47:45,450 --> 00:47:43,029
today and then I stopped meditating

1008
00:47:48,029 --> 00:47:45,460
because it didn't get me anywhere and I

1009
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:48,039
decided I wanted to give all this thing

1010
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:50,890
up for good but then out of the blue I

1011
00:47:56,279 --> 00:47:54,130
suddenly had a experience where I was

1012
00:47:59,910 --> 00:47:56,289
having a mug of coffee and a sandwich

1013
00:48:02,160 --> 00:47:59,920
and suddenly I noticed that neither of

1014
00:48:05,099 --> 00:48:02,170
these objects belong to me and then I

1015
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:05,109
noticed that even my hands didn't belong

1016
00:48:10,289 --> 00:48:07,569
to me that was some other nests which

1017
00:48:13,230 --> 00:48:10,299
was holding this thing and this went on

1018
00:48:17,089 --> 00:48:13,240
and on and on until I suddenly totally

1019
00:48:18,299 --> 00:48:17,099
this became disembodied and

1020
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:18,309
depersonalized

1021
00:48:25,230 --> 00:48:21,490
and I was suddenly entered an aluminous

1022
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:25,240
light which I think many people would

1023
00:48:32,970 --> 00:48:30,450
properly describe it as a you United

1024
00:48:35,849 --> 00:48:32,980
uniting this God or something that was

1025
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:35,859
an all word present or omnipresent

1026
00:48:41,579 --> 00:48:38,650
awareness there was no separation

1027
00:48:44,999 --> 00:48:41,589
between myself there was just pure

1028
00:48:47,099 --> 00:48:45,009
consciousness and this this had a very

1029
00:48:52,759 --> 00:48:47,109
very powerful effect on me and has never

1030
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:52,769
left me and but I fine finding that by

1031
00:48:59,279 --> 00:48:56,079
giving it a name I would actually limit

1032
00:49:02,370 --> 00:48:59,289
it so you know and so I it always became

1033
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:02,380
a little bit of something which I did

1034
00:49:10,289 --> 00:49:07,690
not name or define in any way because it

1035
00:49:13,019 --> 00:49:10,299
was so incredibly infinite and I came

1036
00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:13,029
across this type of consciousness

1037
00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:16,390
I experienced it several times after

1038
00:49:24,269 --> 00:49:19,569
that and most recently the most powerful

1039
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:24,279
experience I had was in 2013 when I was

1040
00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:27,930
on a retreat in the Scottish mountains

1041
00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:31,569
for a week and I meditated all day long

1042
00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:35,049
and I I documented this as well in my

1043
00:49:43,319 --> 00:49:38,470
book the 10-minute moment and there came

1044
00:49:47,609 --> 00:49:43,329
a point on day 5 where I suddenly was

1045
00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:47,619
confronted with the total dissolution of

1046
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:51,160
myself of my identity of my ego of any

1047
00:49:55,410 --> 00:49:52,570
sense of self

1048
00:49:57,930 --> 00:49:55,420
and and I became very scared I thought

1049
00:49:59,610 --> 00:49:57,940
the next thing that will happen is I

1050
00:50:02,730 --> 00:49:59,620
cease to exist

1051
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:02,740
and and the only thing that can now

1052
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:05,680
happen is that there is a God and it

1053
00:50:11,550 --> 00:50:07,930
feels absolutely dissolved me I will

1054
00:50:15,870 --> 00:50:11,560
lose any sense of identity and I became

1055
00:50:18,450 --> 00:50:15,880
very desperate to to find my my identity

1056
00:50:23,490 --> 00:50:18,460
again my ego and and it took me all day

1057
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:23,500
to assemble my sense of focus of who I

1058
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:25,930
was but then something interesting

1059
00:50:30,660 --> 00:50:28,720
happened the following day after I sort

1060
00:50:33,870 --> 00:50:30,670
of got over this which I thought was a

1061
00:50:36,330 --> 00:50:33,880
traumatic experience the following day

1062
00:50:41,070 --> 00:50:36,340
something very beautifully and magically

1063
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:41,080
happened I suddenly was I was meditating

1064
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:43,450
over sitting outside my little heart and

1065
00:50:49,860 --> 00:50:45,280
was looking into the landscape and

1066
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:49,870
suddenly this light has descended on the

1067
00:50:55,740 --> 00:50:52,450
environment the grass and everything

1068
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:55,750
started glowing my first impression was

1069
00:51:01,650 --> 00:50:57,850
okay that is the sunlight which is

1070
00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:01,660
reflecting but then I noticed about was

1071
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:05,470
everywhere I literally could see all the

1072
00:51:12,180 --> 00:51:08,290
atoms and then this light sort of came

1073
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:12,190
into my own being and and I suddenly

1074
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:16,210
again lost the distinction between who I

1075
00:51:23,820 --> 00:51:20,170
was and and an infinite luminous

1076
00:51:27,150 --> 00:51:23,830
awareness and that was the most powerful

1077
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:27,160
saying I couldn't even describe what was

1078
00:51:35,490 --> 00:51:30,610
taking place it didn't last long but

1079
00:51:38,430 --> 00:51:35,500
that totally eradicated my idea of who I

1080
00:51:42,090 --> 00:51:38,440
was and even now to this day I'm finding

1081
00:51:45,330 --> 00:51:42,100
it very hard to even remember who I was

1082
00:51:48,740 --> 00:51:45,340
just a couple of days ago if you like

1083
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:48,750
you know because the sense of otherness

1084
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:51,970
since then which is now three years ago

1085
00:51:59,100 --> 00:51:54,970
has totally disappeared you know I I

1086
00:52:02,070 --> 00:51:59,110
find when I walk around into town it

1087
00:52:03,780 --> 00:52:02,080
feels as if I'm walking in an extension

1088
00:52:06,930 --> 00:52:03,790
of my living room

1089
00:52:09,330 --> 00:52:06,940
this is there is no outside word anymore

1090
00:52:14,220 --> 00:52:09,340
you know and there's the closest I can

1091
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:14,230
describe this state of consciousness you

1092
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:17,050
know which is sort of waiting for us to

1093
00:52:22,290 --> 00:52:19,570
be experienced because my powerful

1094
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:22,300
feeling is that is at the root of who we

1095
00:52:25,470 --> 00:52:22,930
really are

1096
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:25,480
and from this state of consciousness we

1097
00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:27,730
really only just start to become human

1098
00:52:36,750 --> 00:52:30,910
beings you know and then develop very

1099
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:36,760
I'm not focused on on a separated self

1100
00:52:42,330 --> 00:52:39,280
and and this was a very powerful

1101
00:52:45,450 --> 00:52:42,340
experience now I I don't know what to

1102
00:52:47,970 --> 00:52:45,460
say about this how to describe it and I

1103
00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:47,980
don't know where God comes into it you

1104
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:50,340
know no I I think you've done an

1105
00:52:57,180 --> 00:52:54,010
excellent job of kind of traversing that

1106
00:53:00,210 --> 00:52:57,190
terrain and I'd like the idea that this

1107
00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:00,220
is not knowable and it's almost you get

1108
00:53:06,980 --> 00:53:03,190
the sense that it's almost not something

1109
00:53:09,450 --> 00:53:06,990
that you can should even try and

1110
00:53:11,190 --> 00:53:09,460
verbalize or bring to that level because

1111
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:11,200
it would somehow be lost you know it's

1112
00:53:17,580 --> 00:53:14,530
interesting that like I know in the

1113
00:53:20,010 --> 00:53:17,590
Muslim tradition Islam they have that

1114
00:53:23,190 --> 00:53:20,020
that there is that edik right to never

1115
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:23,200
mention the name god it's never supposed

1116
00:53:27,780 --> 00:53:25,450
to be spoken or written I might have

1117
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:27,790
that a little bit offa the basic idea is

1118
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:29,830
the same is that you know to try and

1119
00:53:34,260 --> 00:53:32,070
bring it down to that level with somehow

1120
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:34,270
lessen its its meaning or its

1121
00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:36,250
significant it's art or take us in a

1122
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:38,350
different direction than where it goes

1123
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:41,170
so but but here I guess is where that

1124
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:43,690
that leaves me and and I I love what you

1125
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:45,310
just brought forth and I think it's so

1126
00:53:50,130 --> 00:53:47,710
important important important that

1127
00:53:53,130 --> 00:53:50,140
people know that you've walked this path

1128
00:53:55,470 --> 00:53:53,140
and that you report it so honestly and

1129
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:55,480
in such detail with your website and all

1130
00:53:59,820 --> 00:53:56,770
these terrific books that you've

1131
00:54:01,530 --> 00:53:59,830
mentioned and I also think of my friend

1132
00:54:03,090 --> 00:54:01,540
Rick Archer at boot at the gas pump

1133
00:54:06,420 --> 00:54:03,100
who's done an excellent job of

1134
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:06,430
chronicling similar accounts from people

1135
00:54:10,830 --> 00:54:08,050
who are going through this process of

1136
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:10,840
enlightenment or awareness whatever you

1137
00:54:14,340 --> 00:54:12,400
want whatever label you want to put on

1138
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:14,350
it and there's so many many people

1139
00:54:17,339 --> 00:54:16,090
who've who've experienced it in

1140
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:17,349
different ways you need

1141
00:54:23,489 --> 00:54:20,079
ways but in many ways their their

1142
00:54:25,229 --> 00:54:23,499
similarities that are undeniable I guess

1143
00:54:29,999 --> 00:54:25,239
the question I'm always left with is

1144
00:54:33,630 --> 00:54:30,009
then what are we to make of the reason

1145
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:33,640
why we're here it doesn't seem adequate

1146
00:54:39,660 --> 00:54:35,920
to say we're here only to transcend

1147
00:54:42,839 --> 00:54:39,670
being here we're here only to get beyond

1148
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:42,849
being here I that just doesn't fit with

1149
00:54:49,469 --> 00:54:45,690
my understanding of for example

1150
00:54:51,420 --> 00:54:49,479
reincarnation my understanding of and

1151
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:51,430
again reincarnation from a scientific

1152
00:54:55,380 --> 00:54:53,710
standpoint well-established in the

1153
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:55,390
research we've interviewed Jim Tucker

1154
00:54:58,589 --> 00:54:57,130
from the University of Virginia there's

1155
00:55:01,289 --> 00:54:58,599
been a lot of research on that the

1156
00:55:03,809 --> 00:55:01,299
research stands up so reincarnation is

1157
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:03,819
kind of hard to step back step away from

1158
00:55:09,269 --> 00:55:07,450
in a very reality base kind of sense but

1159
00:55:11,969 --> 00:55:09,279
when we look at it from a larger sense

1160
00:55:14,099 --> 00:55:11,979
how are we supposed to understand what

1161
00:55:16,319 --> 00:55:14,109
our purpose is here it doesn't seem

1162
00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:16,329
adequate to say we're here only to

1163
00:55:22,529 --> 00:55:18,910
transcend being here well this is

1164
00:55:26,099 --> 00:55:22,539
exactly what I feel I mean this vice of

1165
00:55:30,660 --> 00:55:26,109
depart with the idea that we are here in

1166
00:55:33,569 --> 00:55:30,670
order to transcend our state we are at

1167
00:55:37,079 --> 00:55:33,579
at the moment and then of escape from it

1168
00:55:40,049 --> 00:55:37,089
and become enlightened being to be in

1169
00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:40,059
some celestial dimension and be a relief

1170
00:55:45,690 --> 00:55:44,200
of all the hassle and all the pain you

1171
00:55:48,209 --> 00:55:45,700
know that is not how I

1172
00:55:51,390 --> 00:55:48,219
I see it I mean my understanding is

1173
00:55:54,620 --> 00:55:51,400
exactly we are here because we are here

1174
00:55:59,190 --> 00:55:54,630
you know we are a part of this reality

1175
00:56:02,160 --> 00:55:59,200
to me that is absolutely fine and if we

1176
00:56:04,529 --> 00:56:02,170
have if we experience hardship and all

1177
00:56:08,009 --> 00:56:04,539
the other things the best thing we can

1178
00:56:11,849 --> 00:56:08,019
do is it is to bring a higher state of

1179
00:56:15,870 --> 00:56:11,859
awareness into this reality and and make

1180
00:56:19,289 --> 00:56:15,880
it illuminated in a sense so that we

1181
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:19,299
don't feel the extremes of suffering we

1182
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:22,210
do normally I mean we still suffer by

1183
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:23,950
the mere fact that we are physical

1184
00:56:29,610 --> 00:56:26,410
beings endowed with physical body

1185
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:29,620
intenseness pain but

1186
00:56:36,510 --> 00:56:32,530
we sill but we are not associated any

1187
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:36,520
longer with this limited share which we

1188
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:39,520
carry around and I think that is the the

1189
00:56:45,540 --> 00:56:42,610
next stage in our evolution if you like

1190
00:56:49,380 --> 00:56:45,550
as human beings that we are able to to

1191
00:56:52,820 --> 00:56:49,390
use the energy forms we carry around

1192
00:56:55,620 --> 00:56:52,830
visit but from an enlightened or

1193
00:56:58,020 --> 00:56:55,630
luminous viewpoint you know so it's

1194
00:57:01,050 --> 00:56:58,030
nothing really I feel that it's we need

1195
00:57:03,690 --> 00:57:01,060
to get away from quite the opposite we

1196
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:03,700
have to we are here to embrace it

1197
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:05,890
properly there's a greatest level of

1198
00:57:11,580 --> 00:57:08,710
consciousness and awareness you know and

1199
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:11,590
penetrate everything we are surrounded

1200
00:57:19,050 --> 00:57:16,810
by to enter reality wholeheartedly not

1201
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:19,060
not getting away from it and I think

1202
00:57:25,380 --> 00:57:21,850
that that makes suddenly that makes our

1203
00:57:28,260 --> 00:57:25,390
life and our reality incredibly rich and

1204
00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:28,270
woody faceted and it gives us much more

1205
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:31,510
energy to to bring into this world and

1206
00:57:37,020 --> 00:57:34,720
transform all the shortfalls we have

1207
00:57:39,690 --> 00:57:37,030
created because of our ignorance you

1208
00:57:43,020 --> 00:57:39,700
know and our alienation and that's why

1209
00:57:46,410 --> 00:57:43,030
how I see it wonderfully said I think

1210
00:57:49,020 --> 00:57:46,420
that makes total sense to me you're

1211
00:57:51,930 --> 00:57:49,030
going to tell us where you're going with

1212
00:57:54,420 --> 00:57:51,940
this work now where is this taking you

1213
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:54,430
in terms of in terms of interacting with

1214
00:57:58,890 --> 00:57:57,040
other people how can people learn about

1215
00:58:00,150 --> 00:57:58,900
what you're doing we already said

1216
00:58:02,250 --> 00:58:00,160
through the website and we'll have links

1217
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:02,260
to that in the books but how are you

1218
00:58:07,980 --> 00:58:04,810
also engaging with people about what

1219
00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:07,990
you've discovered what I'm doing at the

1220
00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:11,110
moment I mean I'm basically an artist

1221
00:58:15,180 --> 00:58:13,150
I'm a commercial illustrator and I've

1222
00:58:19,170 --> 00:58:15,190
been an artist all my life I earn my

1223
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:19,180
living as an artist and and I mean there

1224
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:21,250
are two things I pursue one is

1225
00:58:28,650 --> 00:58:25,810
meditation and I I don't I didn't know

1226
00:58:32,070 --> 00:58:28,660
until about a couple of years ago that I

1227
00:58:34,650 --> 00:58:32,080
was going to write another book you know

1228
00:58:37,830 --> 00:58:34,660
which is business of infinity which are

1229
00:58:40,770 --> 00:58:37,840
the last seven years since the first

1230
00:58:43,580 --> 00:58:40,780
book came out I don't know whether that

1231
00:58:48,090 --> 00:58:43,590
I'm going to continue this but I

1232
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:48,100
you know that what I experienced at the

1233
00:58:54,210 --> 00:58:51,250
moment so deep meditation gives me

1234
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:54,220
another new level of deeper experience

1235
00:58:59,250 --> 00:58:57,010
and I feel there's no such thing as

1236
00:59:01,950 --> 00:58:59,260
arriving at a stage I always feel

1237
00:59:05,340 --> 00:59:01,960
wherever I am I'm just at the bottom

1238
00:59:07,470 --> 00:59:05,350
step of an infinite long ladder you know

1239
00:59:09,930 --> 00:59:07,480
so I don't know what's going to happen

1240
00:59:13,050 --> 00:59:09,940
in the next one of seven years but in

1241
00:59:16,140 --> 00:59:13,060
the meantime I'm going to carry on with

1242
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:16,150
there's my deep meditation and I already

1243
00:59:22,020 --> 00:59:19,650
found there are levels which I

1244
00:59:22,770 --> 00:59:22,030
experienced which I haven't experienced

1245
00:59:24,930 --> 00:59:22,780
before

1246
00:59:27,390 --> 00:59:24,940
which may take me into a totally

1247
00:59:30,930 --> 00:59:27,400
different direction the other thing I'm

1248
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:30,940
really interested in is as in my work as

1249
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:35,410
an artist - I'm just getting involved in

1250
00:59:39,660 --> 00:59:37,930
virtual reality and I'm trying to bring

1251
00:59:42,510 --> 00:59:39,670
some of the archetypes

1252
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:42,520
into the physical reality for example

1253
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:46,090
one of the deep meditative experiences

1254
00:59:50,820 --> 00:59:48,970
is a tunnel experience and if you go

1255
00:59:54,780 --> 00:59:50,830
through higher levels of consciousness

1256
00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:54,790
you get incredibly vivid tunnel

1257
01:00:00,810 --> 00:59:57,760
experience which are captured by other

1258
01:00:04,109 --> 01:00:00,820
cultures in forms of mandalas you know

1259
01:00:06,750 --> 01:00:04,119
and the union idea of the self and so on

1260
01:00:11,450 --> 01:00:06,760
and and what I have done I already

1261
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:15,990
applications and the idea is that people

1262
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:20,130
actually make a link or it triggers a

1263
01:00:25,410 --> 01:00:22,810
deep inner memory which they may

1264
01:00:28,890 --> 01:00:25,420
recognise and it connects them to their

1265
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:28,900
inner self and at the feedback I had so

1266
01:00:34,260 --> 01:00:30,970
far is quite promising some people

1267
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:34,270
described it it is similar all they

1268
01:00:39,540 --> 01:00:35,970
would experience a near-death experience

1269
01:00:43,109 --> 01:00:39,550
like so but other people mentioned words

1270
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:43,119
like Nirvana or you know so that is

1271
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:45,130
quite promising I've got a bit of

1272
01:00:49,290 --> 01:00:47,650
feedback from that the thing is of

1273
01:00:51,180 --> 01:00:49,300
course is virtual reality you are

1274
01:00:55,410 --> 01:00:51,190
immersed and surrounded by the

1275
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:55,420
experience so the the possibility of

1276
01:01:00,240 --> 01:00:57,010
we're releasing a trigger to your

1277
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:00,250
subconscious is much greater so that's

1278
01:01:06,590 --> 01:01:03,250
the that's about I'm feeling quite

1279
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:06,600
excited about and also it allows me to

1280
01:01:13,650 --> 01:01:10,930
instead of having flood 3d images which

1281
01:01:17,340 --> 01:01:13,660
I have on my website it allows me to use

1282
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:17,350
the inspiration of what I gained sooo my

1283
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:21,610
out-of-body experience to create 3d

1284
01:01:28,110 --> 01:01:24,370
environments people can enter into and

1285
01:01:31,170 --> 01:01:28,120
perhaps also create triggers which then

1286
01:01:34,260 --> 01:01:31,180
when people fall asleep or they they go

1287
01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:34,270
to sleep at night in the dream they may

1288
01:01:40,530 --> 01:01:37,870
suddenly be reminded and they may find a

1289
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:40,540
lucid trigger in the dream and this the

1290
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:43,330
work that really interests me combining

1291
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:47,170
my artistic sort of leaning to create a

1292
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:50,770
connection within people to trigger

1293
01:01:57,210 --> 01:01:55,210
lucid experiences but awesome so how

1294
01:01:59,280 --> 01:01:57,220
does this actually work

1295
01:02:01,440 --> 01:01:59,290
I mean is it something it's an app that

1296
01:02:05,070 --> 01:02:01,450
people download where do they run it on

1297
01:02:08,420 --> 01:02:05,080
a yes at the moment I'm using the

1298
01:02:11,460 --> 01:02:08,430
development version of the oculus rift

1299
01:02:15,660 --> 01:02:11,470
which is going to be released next year

1300
01:02:17,610 --> 01:02:15,670
as a consumer version then this is some

1301
01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:17,620
and this comes out I don't make the

1302
01:02:22,380 --> 01:02:20,110
these apps freely available so people

1303
01:02:24,810 --> 01:02:22,390
can just go to my website and download

1304
01:02:28,380 --> 01:02:24,820
them and and try it out I want as many

1305
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:28,390
people as possible to to have the

1306
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:31,200
possibility of linking up to this

1307
01:02:38,310 --> 01:02:35,170
experience the same way as I some time

1308
01:02:42,330 --> 01:02:38,320
ago I composed a binaural sound which

1309
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:42,340
includes the mantra and also a shamanic

1310
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:44,910
beat and I had a lot of positive

1311
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:48,010
experiences feedback from other people

1312
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:51,310
who felt the it helped their meditation

1313
01:02:59,550 --> 01:02:55,210
and so on so I want to create and an

1314
01:03:01,230 --> 01:02:59,560
armory of apps and and aids similar to

1315
01:03:04,020 --> 01:03:01,240
what people already do when they write

1316
01:03:08,510 --> 01:03:04,030
books about meditation and so but I want

1317
01:03:11,030 --> 01:03:08,520
to do the same thing in the audiovisual

1318
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:11,040
Fiat you know and I've linked up with a

1319
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:15,330
composer who does music which is based

1320
01:03:22,490 --> 01:03:19,250
on mantras and certain reasons and and

1321
01:03:25,340 --> 01:03:22,500
hizmet Eric chance and Sanskrit chants

1322
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:25,350
and and these go very well together he's

1323
01:03:32,060 --> 01:03:27,890
also been meditating for 40 years and

1324
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:32,070
his name is Craig Cruz and we hope to

1325
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:33,920
work together and make these

1326
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:36,570
applications freely available so people

1327
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:38,970
can try them out and see if they find

1328
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:42,090
another entry point into higher

1329
01:03:47,180 --> 01:03:45,090
consciousness awesome and the best place

1330
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:47,190
for people to find all this is through

1331
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:50,370
your website multi-dimensional man or is

1332
01:03:55,610 --> 01:03:53,250
there another place yes it they sitting

1333
01:04:00,370 --> 01:03:55,620
from what did I mention man but my other

1334
01:04:05,450 --> 01:04:00,380
website is also Light and Magic core wk

1335
01:04:08,090 --> 01:04:05,460
great light in magic Koda UK great well

1336
01:04:10,370 --> 01:04:08,100
it's a it is a tremendous body of work

1337
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:10,380
you're making a great contribution it's

1338
01:04:15,110 --> 01:04:12,330
been great talking to you I appreciate

1339
01:04:17,870 --> 01:04:15,120
the the openness and your ability to

1340
01:04:21,470 --> 01:04:17,880
handle all these different issues that

1341
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:21,480
lie beneath the kind of surface of just

1342
01:04:26,510 --> 01:04:23,850
oh it's it's either true or it's not

1343
01:04:28,670 --> 01:04:26,520
true you know I mean diving deeper is I

1344
01:04:30,650 --> 01:04:28,680
think where so many of them are

1345
01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:30,660
interesting aspects of this really

1346
01:04:35,420 --> 01:04:32,760
emerging you do a great job of that so I

1347
01:04:37,370 --> 01:04:35,430
appreciate it yeah I think we just as

1348
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:37,380
the beginning yeah I always feared

1349
01:04:43,220 --> 01:04:41,250
whenever I enter these states how much

1350
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:43,230
we are at the very beginning you know

1351
01:04:49,810 --> 01:04:45,810
and how religious we actually know and I

1352
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:49,820
hope that gradually build up a consensus

1353
01:04:55,970 --> 01:04:53,850
by gathering a lot more data you know

1354
01:04:58,460 --> 01:04:55,980
and people making all kinds of

1355
01:05:02,780 --> 01:04:58,470
contributions they are experiences

1356
01:05:05,510 --> 01:05:02,790
people publish I have no idea of you

1357
01:05:09,470 --> 01:05:05,520
know and I've no knowledge of so so it

1358
01:05:12,980 --> 01:05:09,480
will help if each one of us creates

1359
01:05:15,950 --> 01:05:12,990
another piece to put into the puzzle and

1360
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:15,960
hopefully it is a consensus which will

1361
01:05:21,500 --> 01:05:19,440
allow us to build up a picture of off

1362
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:21,510
the frontiers which you really have been

1363
01:05:25,340 --> 01:05:22,290
explored

1364
01:05:28,070 --> 01:05:25,350
until only a few years ago so so we are

1365
01:05:30,650 --> 01:05:28,080
just at the beginning of something

1366
01:05:34,310 --> 01:05:30,660
totally new and totally unexplored and

1367
01:05:37,130 --> 01:05:34,320
and I think if you need to make a start

1368
01:05:39,050 --> 01:05:37,140
somehow you know and and I'm working I

1369
01:05:41,110 --> 01:05:39,060
like the way you put that I'm always a

1370
01:05:44,300 --> 01:05:41,120
little bit resistant to the

1371
01:05:46,610 --> 01:05:44,310
consciousness revolution thing that so

1372
01:05:50,420 --> 01:05:46,620
many people point to and paradigm shift

1373
01:05:51,830 --> 01:05:50,430
and all that I see it much more like in

1374
01:05:53,690 --> 01:05:51,840
the way that you're talking about is

1375
01:05:56,570 --> 01:05:53,700
that hey it's always evolving it's

1376
01:05:58,760 --> 01:05:56,580
always reshaping and as we build these

1377
01:06:01,220 --> 01:05:58,770
different islands by forming these

1378
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:01,230
consensus realities of course different

1379
01:06:05,540 --> 01:06:03,450
people are jumping on that island and

1380
01:06:07,940 --> 01:06:05,550
jumping off another island and we don't

1381
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:07,950
have to be too attached to where it all

1382
01:06:13,340 --> 01:06:10,730
goes we just have to follow the next

1383
01:06:14,450 --> 01:06:13,350
right thing to do and I think everything

1384
01:06:17,510 --> 01:06:14,460
takes care of itself

1385
01:06:19,460 --> 01:06:17,520
yes well it's been great it's been great

1386
01:06:22,010 --> 01:06:19,470
having you on your gonna end please

1387
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:22,020
let's let's stay in touch and let us

1388
01:06:27,110 --> 01:06:25,440
know when you make some major

1389
01:06:28,670 --> 01:06:27,120
advancements with these apps and we'll

1390
01:06:29,350 --> 01:06:28,680
certainly get the word out as best we

1391
01:07:00,080 --> 01:06:29,360
can

1392
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:02,760
thanks again to Jurgen ziva for joining

1393
01:07:07,020 --> 01:07:04,930
me today on skeptic oh I have one

1394
01:07:09,390 --> 01:07:07,030
question to tee up from this interview

1395
01:07:11,310 --> 01:07:09,400
and that is what do you make of Jurgen

1396
01:07:14,099 --> 01:07:11,320
Ziva what do you think of his accounts

1397
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:14,109
of this extended consciousness realm how

1398
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:16,450
do they compare and contrast with some

1399
01:07:20,940 --> 01:07:18,250
of the other folks you've heard here on

1400
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:20,950
skeptic oh and while we're at it how are

1401
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:23,410
we ever to get our arms around all this

1402
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:25,150
material when there are these

1403
01:07:30,359 --> 01:07:27,730
conflicting and different accounts I

1404
01:07:33,990 --> 01:07:30,369
think Jurgen has a very open minded way

1405
01:07:35,820 --> 01:07:34,000
of including all those as aspects of a

1406
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:35,830
possibility of a much much greater

1407
01:07:40,589 --> 01:07:37,570
consciousness but what do you think

1408
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:40,599
about that the place to let me know is

1409
01:07:46,589 --> 01:07:43,930
through the skeptic Oh website at SK EPT

1410
01:07:48,089 --> 01:07:46,599
I K o dot-com you can join the

1411
01:07:49,980 --> 01:07:48,099
discussion at the forum with a couple of

1412
01:07:52,349 --> 01:07:49,990
the new links I added to the website per

1413
01:07:54,890 --> 01:07:52,359
your suggestion or you can drop me a

1414
01:07:56,910 --> 01:07:54,900
note on Facebook or through email of

1415
01:07:59,220 --> 01:07:56,920
course you'll also find on The Skeptical

1416
01:08:01,650 --> 01:07:59,230
website almost 300 episodes of sceptical

1417
01:08:03,870 --> 01:08:01,660
all there for download for free you can

1418
01:08:05,970 --> 01:08:03,880
subscribe and I hope you do through

1419
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:05,980
iTunes or stitcher or you can just

1420
01:08:09,780 --> 01:08:07,330
download the shows right there through

1421
01:08:11,609 --> 01:08:09,790
the website thanks again to all of you

1422
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:11,619
who have connected with me in the last

1423
01:08:15,390 --> 01:08:13,330
couple weeks I've really enjoyed the

1424
01:08:17,789 --> 01:08:15,400
emails and the kind words that you're

1425
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:17,799
sending my way it's so awesome to think

1426
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:19,810
that we've been able to connect through

1427
01:08:24,570 --> 01:08:22,330
this show it really is such an awesome

1428
01:08:26,070 --> 01:08:24,580
awesome experience to know that we've

1429
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:26,080
made this connection through this

1430
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:28,690
strange medium of sending out these

1431
01:08:33,539 --> 01:08:30,719
recorded shows through the internet so

1432
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:33,549
so cool who would have thought it anyway

1433
01:08:36,749 --> 01:08:34,690
I have a number of interesting shows

1434
01:08:38,610 --> 01:08:36,759
coming up I will roll them out during

1435
01:08:40,559 --> 01:08:38,620
the holiday season probably on the

1436
01:08:42,599 --> 01:08:40,569
regular schedule may be slowed down a

1437
01:08:44,550 --> 01:08:42,609
little bit but they're coming your waste

1438
01:08:46,709 --> 01:08:44,560
so clear up the space on the hard drive

1439
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:46,719
or iPhone or Rev your listening and